Docker is the dangerous gamble which we will regret | Smash Company


51 bookmarks. First posted by tgecho may 2018.


(written by lawrence krubner, however indented passages are often quotes). You can contact lawrence at: lawrence@krubner.com There is perhaps one good argument…
from instapaper
may 2018 by granth
(written by lawrence krubner, however indented passages are often quotes). You can contact lawrence at: lawrence@krubner.com There is perhaps one good argument for using Docker. It is hidden by the…
s 
may 2018 by igorette

And as near as I can tell, this is 100% why Docker is winning. Forget all the nonsense you read about Docker making deployment or security or orchestration easier. It doesn’t. But it is emerging as a standard, something a person can learn at one company and then take to another company. It isn’t messy and ad-hoc the way a custom bash script would be. And that is the real argument in favor of Docker. Whether it can live up to that promise is the gamble.
docker  criticism 
may 2018 by WimLeers
a foolish consistency is something something...

>And as near as I can tell, this is 100% why Docker is winning. Forget all the nonsense you read about Docker making deployment or security or orchestration easier. It doesn’t. But it is emerging as a standard, something a person can learn at one company and then take to another company. It isn’t messy and ad-hoc the way a custom bash script would be. And that is the real argument in favor of Docker. Whether it can live up to that promise is the gamble.

Fascinating. Never considered the labor skill aspect of it.
docker  critique  devops  containers  loldocker 
may 2018 by po
Both Chef and Ansible promised that there would soon be thousands of scripts for all of the common devops tasks, for every possible type of machine. They have failed to fully deliver on this promise. As late as 2005 it still seemed normal that each company would have a devops person who would write custom scripts ...
docker 
may 2018 by F9FABE037
There is perhaps one good argument for using Docker. It is hidden by the many bad arguments for using Docker. I’m going to try to explain why so much Docker rhetoric is stupid, and then look at what reason might be good
docker  containers 
may 2018 by jhealy
Docker is the dangerous gamble which we will regret (written by lawrence krubner, however indented passages are often quotes). You can contact lawrence at:…
may 2018 by kurver
Is Docker the best way to gain portability and security and resource management and orchestration?
virtual_machines  TechSupport 
may 2018 by zephyr777
I don't know Docker, but it's quite a read.
from twitter
may 2018 by jackysee
There is perhaps one good argument for using Docker. It is hidden by the many bad arguments for using Docker. I’m going to try to explain why so much Dock
Docker 
may 2018 by chihchung
On containers
smartos  via:popular 
may 2018 by pgt150
Docker is the dangerous gamble which we will regret (written by lawrence krubner, however indented passages are often quotes). You can contact lawrence at:…
from instapaper
may 2018 by dabigc
Docker is the dangerous gamble which we will regret (written by lawrence krubner, however indented passages are often quotes). You can contact lawrence at:…
via:tgecho  via:popular  2018  sysadmin 
may 2018 by philjr
And as near as I can tell, this is 100% why Docker is winning. Forget all the nonsense you read about Docker making deployment or security or orchestration easier. It doesn’t. But it is emerging as a standard, something a person can learn at one company and then take to another company. It isn’t messy and ad-hoc the way a custom bash script would be. And that is the real argument in favor of Docker. Whether it can live up to that promise is the gamble.

At the risk of being almost petty, I should point out that these arguments confuse containers with Docker. And I think many pro-Docker people deliberately confuse the issue. Even if containers are a great idea, Docker is driven forward by a specific company which has specific problems
container  engineering 
may 2018 by janpeuker
Docker is the dangerous gamble which we will regret
(written by lawrence krubner, however indented passages are often quotes). You can contact lawrence at: lawrence@krubner.com
There is perhaps one good argument for using Docker. It is hidden by the many bad arguments for using Docker. I’m going to try to explain why so much Docker rhetoric is stupid, and then look at what reason might be good.
Every time I criticize Docker I get angry responses. When I wrote Why would anyone choose Docker over fat binaries? 6 months ago I saw some very intelligent responses on Hacker News, but also some angry ones. So in writing this current essay, I am trying to answer some of the criticism I expect to get in the future.
But I guess I am lucky because so far I have not gotten a reaction as angry as what The HFT Guy had to face when he talked about his own failed attempt to use Docker in production at the financial firm where he works:
I received a quite insulting email from a guy who is clearly in the amateur league to say that “any idiot can run Docker on Ubuntu” then proceed to give a list of software packages and advanced system tweaks that are mandatory to run Docker on Ubuntu, that allegedly “anyone could have found in 5 seconds with Google“.
On the Internet, that kind of anger is normal. I don’t know why, but it is. Many developers get angry when they hear someone criticize a technology which they favor. That anger gets in the way of their ability to figure out the long-term reality of the situation.
Docker promises portability and security and resource management and orchestration. Therefore the question that rational people should want to answer is “Is Docker the best way to gain portability and security and resource management and orchestration?”
I’m going to respond to some of the responses I got. Some of these are easy to dismiss. There is one argument that is not easy to dismiss. I’ll save that for the end.
One person wrote:
Because choosing Docker requires boiling fewer oceans, and whether those oceans should or should not be boiled has no bearing on whether I can afford to boil them right now.
Okay, but compared to what? Having your devops person write some scripts to standardize the build, the deployment, the orchestration, and the resource use? The criticism seems to imply “I don’t want the devops person to do this, because the result will be ad-hoc, and I want something standardized.”
Docker wins because developers and managers see it as offering something less custom, less chaotic, less ad-hoc, and more standardized. Or at least, having the potential to do so. The reality of Docker has been an incredible mess so far (see Docker in production: a history of failure). But many are willing to argue that all of the problems will soon be resolved, and Docker will emerge as the stable, consistent standard for containerization. This is a very large gamble. Nearly every company that’s taken this gamble so far has ended up burned, but companies keep taking this gamble on the assumption it is going to pay off big at some point soon.
Every company that I have worked with, over the last two years, was either using Docker or was drawing up plans to soon use Docker. They are implicitly paying a very high price to have a standardized solution, rather than an ad-hoc build/deploy/orchestrate script. I personally have not yet seen a case where this was the economically rational choice, so either companies are implicitly hoping this will pay off in the long-run, or they are being irrational.
I use the word “implicitly” because I’ve yet to hear a tech manager verbalize this gamble explicitly. Most people who defend Docker talk about how it offers portability or security or orchestration or configuration. Docker can give us portability or security or orchestration or configuration, but at a cost of considerable complexity. Writing an ad-hoc script would be easier in most cases.
The best articles about Docker emphasize the trade-offs that one makes by choosing to use it:
It’s best to think of Docker as an advanced optimization. Yes, it is extremely cool and powerful, but it adds significantly to the complexity of your systems and should only be used in mission critical systems if you are an expert system administrator that understands all the essential points of how to use it safely in production.
At the moment, you need more systems expertise to use Docker, not less. Nearly every article you’ll read on Docker will show you the extremely simple use-cases and will ignore the complexities of using Docker on multi-host production systems. This gives a false impression of what it takes to actually use Docker in production.
In the world of computer programming, we have the saying “Premature optimization is the root of all evil.” Yet most of my clients this year have insisted “We must Dockerize everything, right from the start.” Rather than build a working system, and then put it in production, and then maybe see if Docker offers an advantage over simpler tools, the push has been to standardize the development and deployment around Docker.
A common conversation:
Me: “We don’t need Docker this early in the project.”
Them: “This app requires Nginx and PostGres and Redis and a bunch of environment variables. How are you going to set all that up without Docker?”
Me: “I can write a bash script. Or “make”. Or any other kind of installer, of which there are dozens. We have all been doing this for many years.”
Them: “That’s insane. The bash script might break, and you’ll have to spend time debugging it, and it won’t necessarily work the same on your machine, compared to mine. With Docker, we write the build script and then its guaranteed to work the same everywhere, on your machine as well as mine.”
Like all sales pitches, this is seductive because it leads with the most attractive feature of Docker. As a development tool, Docker can seem less messy and more consistent than other approaches. It’s the second phase of Docker use, when people try to use it in production, where life becomes painful.
Your dev team might have one developer who owns a Windows machine, another who runs a Mac, another who has installed Ubuntu, and another who has installed RedHat. Perhaps you, the team lead, have no control over what machines they run. Docker can seem like a way to be sure they all have the same development environment. (However, when you consider the hoops you have to jump through to use Docker from a Windows machine, anyone who tells you that Docker simplifies development on a Windows machine is clearly joking with you.)
But when you go to production, you will have complete control over what machines you run in production. If you want to standardize on CentOS, you can. You can have thousands of CentOS servers, and you can use an old technology, such as Puppet, to be sure those servers are identical. The argument for Docker is therefore weaker for production. But apparently having used Docker for development, developers feel it is natural to also use it in production. Yet this is a tough transition.
I can cite a few examples, regarding the problems with Docker, but after a certain point the examples are boring. There are roughly a gazillion blog posts where people have written about the flaws of Docker. Anyone who fails to see the problems with Docker is being willfully blind, and this essay will not change their mind. Rather, they will ignore this essay, or if they read it, they will say, “The Docker eco-system is rapidly maturing and by next year it is going to be really solid and production ready.” They have said this every year for the last 5 years. At some point it will probably be true. But it is a dangerous gamble.
Despite all the problems with Docker, it does seem to be winning — every company I work with seems eager to convert to Docker. Why is that? As near as I can tell, the main thing is standardization.
Again, from the Hacker News responses to my previous essay, “friend-monoid” wrote this defense of Docker:
We have a whole lot of HTTP services in a range of languages. Managing them all with [uber] binaries would be a chore – the author would have to give me a way to set port and listen address, and I have to keep track of every way to set a port. With a net namespace and clever iptables routing, docker can do that for me.
notyourday wrote the response that I wish I’d written:
Of course if you had the same kind of rules written and followed in any other method, you would arrive at the exactly the same place. In fact, you probably would arrive at a better place because you would stop thinking that your application works because of some clever namespace and iptables thing.
anilakar wrote this response to notyourday:
I think that the main point was that docker skills are transferable, i.e. you can expect a new hire to be productive in less time. Too many companies still have in-house build/deploy systems that are probably great for their purpose but don’t offer valuable experience that would be usable outside that company.
And as near as I can tell, this is 100% why Docker is winning. Forget all the nonsense you read about Docker making deployment or security or orchestration easier. It doesn’t. But it is emerging as a standard, something a person can learn at one company and then take to another company. It isn’t messy and ad-hoc the way a custom bash script would be. And that is the real argument in favor of Docker. Whether it can live up to that promise is the gamble.
At the risk of being almost petty, I should point out that these arguments confuse containers with Docker. And I think many pro-Docker people deliberately confuse the issue. Even if containers are a great idea, Docker is driven forward by a specific company which has specific problems. Again from HTF Guy:
Docker has no business model and no way to monetize. It’s fair to say that they are releasing to all platforms (Mac/Windows) and integrating all kind of features (Swarm) as a… [more]
Source  from iphone
may 2018 by hendry
(written by lawrence krubner, however indented passages are often quotes). You can contact lawrence at: lawrence@krubner.com There is perhaps one good argument for using Docker. It is hidden by the many bad arguments for using Docker.
feedly  ifttt 
may 2018 by AnthonyBaker
Docker is the dangerous gamble which we will regret (written by lawrence krubner, however indented passages are often quotes). You can contact lawrence at:…
from instapaper
may 2018 by tgecho